Dice Investment Comparison

13 months after our investment we stopped the comparison, these were the results.

• 3 sites stole our full investment in exit scams.
• 1 site closed and returned our investment.
• 1 site stopped offering investment.
• 1 site was for sale.
• 1 site had no turnover.
• 2 sites were operating normally but giving very small returns.
• We lost 32% of our investment overall.

We don’t advise anyone to invest in house banks until there is a trustless and provably fair way to do so. We gave detailed updates during the investment period which can be seen by expanding the diary of a house bank investor toggle at the bottom of this page.

Site	Balance	Return %
	m฿ 1.5451	54 %
	m฿ 15102	51%
	m฿ 1109	10.9%
	m฿ 1062	6.2%
	m฿ 10123	1.2%
	m฿ 04	-100%
	m฿ 0	-100%
	m฿ 0	-100%
Average	m฿ 675	-32.46%

1. After 10 months Betking changed its name, put the site up for sale and changed investment rules to the investor’s disadvantage, at that time we divested.
2. Win88 discontinued investment after 7 months and has since closed.
3. dicenow has since closed.
4. Dice Ninja, IceDice and Coinwin exist scammed, meaning they disappeared with all customer’s money.
5. On any sites that gave options, we invested in the 1% house edge bank with a 1x Kelly.

Diary of a house bank investor

This journal is made up of our posts that were part of a longer conversation on the Bitcointalk Forum. October 18, 2014 It’s still an amateur hour out there I’m afraid, most sites leave something to be desired and some operators don’t even reply when contacted. But we do love the house bank investment model and believe the industry will mature. The game changer will be a trustless implementation on the blockchain via smart contracts… or something. October 18, 2014 Most investments were steady except win88 which had its 3rd stellar week and will go to the top spot if it repeats that performance. Our password manager and ourselves did not record our Ice Dice user ID, thinking we could log in with our username and password. We could not, the user ID recovery function did not work and support did not help. Luckily the user ID is part of the referral URL that we did record so we got access to our account eventually but it was a negative experience that showed up the lacking in Ice Dice’s system and support. October 18, 2014

• Dicenow is rewriting its whole site and will launch with a new name and domain, the timetable is unknown. We are excited about this as they are already a high-quality and reliable operator that does things a bit differently, not just another just dice clone. On the other hand, don’t expect to see any improvements or marketing on dicenow which guarantees the betting volume will remain tiny.
• Ice Dice website is not loading for me at the moment so their figures are not updated. I will keep checking until it loads or can be declared dead
• Peerbet has improved its web design with a new background and home page. We have updated their review score which has lifted them 2 sports in the rankings.
• Coinwin house bank has more than halved in size and is now less than ฿11.
• PRC’s house bank has gone up another ~฿1000 and they were the only site with good turnover this week of ~฿1000.

October 18, 2014 Ice Dice have come back to life and their figures have been updated. They have by fare the lowest turnover and expected annual return, to be honest, I am only invested in them for the purposes of this comparison. See the updated figures and Ice Dice review here dice-investment-comparison/ In the time it took to write this they are offline again, so still having problems, feels like a sinking ship to be honest. October 18, 2014 More than ฿1000 of bets reported on Dicenow this week and even more on PRC. It’s interesting being invested in Coinwin when it has a ฿7 bank, it gives the operator much less incentive to do a runner and it means my ฿1 is 14% of the bank meaning I make 13% of site profit (after commission). The small bank is turned over every 2 days meaning I should make 0.9% every 2 days. Although so far every single operator is below their expected annual return which is calculated with that logic. This might point to operators over-reporting their turnover, underpaying their investors or that bots making tiny tiny bets with stop losses on their martingales are actually making money. October 18, 2014 We are just about back to break even after the Dice Ninja loss. The Total Wagered figure displayed on the Peerbet dice interface has gone down since the last update On the 5th it was ฿476.437 now it’s ฿359.488. That is one of the figures the table uses to calculate bank turnover and expected annual return and this is the 2nd it this has happened. Peerbet shows another figure for wagered in my invest page of ฿5467.832, I have contacted them for clarification. That’s the kind of thing I mean when I say it’s still armature hour out there. October 18, 2014 We have a new leader! Win88 is now king of the hill with 38.54% returned in less than 2 months which annualizes to 766.23%! Big action on BitDice this week with more than ฿3500 bets which saw site profit grow despite my epic ฿6.5 winning sessions To be extra rude I lowered their score in the dice reviews after that session as I realized a couple of little things that were not optimal with the betting experience. Peerbet has recognised there is a problem with their amount wagered display and is working on a fix. In the meantime, we cannot report on their bank turnover or expected annual return, we are working on getting the table to display a “?” for those cells. We should be back in profit overall by next week! Here is where the table lives. October 18, 2014 More than 2 months in and we have hit our biggest milestone so far. We are in profit! Even after 1 of the 8 operators stole our entire ฿1 investment. We also have the first operator whose actual return is better than their expected return based on the house edge and the amount wagered. That is Peerbet who have fixed their amount wagered figure allowing us to calculate their bank turnover and expected annual return. They also had a profit bump of ฿0.01 for the week There was also a nice ฿0.03 profit bump on PRD dice which has taken them back above Win88. They also got almost ฿1000 more invested in the bank ~฿3000 bet on Bitdice with almost no profit change… October 18, 2014 Losses this week on Win88, Peerbet and BitDice have taken us back into negative return overall. Win88s result puts PRD dice way out in front. October 18, 2014 Big week on BitDice with our investment up from ฿0.999 to ฿1.070 and about ฿30,000 turnovers. Peerbet went the other direction from ฿1.075 to ฿1.061 and had ฿3000 wagered which is quite a lot for them. PRD dice house bank rose from ฿1768 to ฿1968 and their annual return is in line with their expected annual return which makes me happy. October 18, 2014 We are back in profit overall. The last couple of weeks have seen more the ฿4000 turned over at BitDice yet profit continues to decline. PRC has improved their website, going back to the Pocket Rockets Casino branding, their total investment has decreased quite a bit. Peace of shit Ice Dice is broken again and I am not optimistic for the future. If it was just my money I would pull it out asap but for the purpose of the table, I guess I will ride it out. Or perhaps I should not because if it fails the table will be way in the negative again and these are meant to be real-life stats in real life I could see the failure coming and did not want to keep the funds in there… Win88 had a big fortnight with the investment going from 1.25 to 1.35, if that continues they will soon overtake Pocket Rockets Casino for the top spot. October 18, 2014 All figures are updated and it’s not pretty. In the last 2 weeks, Peerbet had a nice bump from ฿1.07 to ฿1.132. Pocket Rockets Casino went from ฿1681 invested to ฿2661 and ฿135275 bets to ฿146375. Our BitDice investment went from ฿1.046 to ฿1.064 with site investment growing from ฿1290 to ฿1506 and around ฿10,000 bitcoins wagered! With 10,000 coins wagered in 2 weeks at both Pocket Rockets Casino and BitDice site profit should have gone up a lot more, we say this about BitDice over and over again, it seems they are either 1. Unlucky 2. Faking turnover 3. Underpaying investors 4. Any combination of the above. I am unable to log in to CoinWin and it shows no bets and no balances. This is probably another runner but because I only noticed it today I will give it a while. If the anonymous operators are out there please contact me to return my ฿1.141 IceDice appears to have done a runner costing me another full bitcoin. For about 3 weeks the site has just been a grey screen saying:

The system is down for maintenance It’ll be back shortly.

and the operator is not answering emails. I am not that surprised, I should have seen it coming by the multilevel marketing program and previous problems. 4 months in and we have lost 11% due to 2 sites scamming us. Even before the IceDice loss a friend asked me what crypto dice site I recommend he invest in, I told him none of them. They are run by the B team or the C team and the operator incentives are perverse (they make more money disappearing or fudging the numbers than running the site honestly). People are recommending I add new sites that have the same business model and risk profile as those that have just scammed me. They could literally be run by the same people. Unless the site gives me the ฿1 to invest this would be idiocy on my part. I am glad to see there is a lot of discussion about trustless solutions, when this is in place I will again consider recommending people invest in crypto dice sites. For now, the ecosystem is full of snakes and amateurs and is best avoided. That realisation has made this a worthwhile experiment and I will keep adding to and improving it. October 18, 2014 All figures are updated comrades but its a sad sight I’m afraid. In terms of investments, Peerbet had a great fortnight going from ฿1.132 to ฿1.226 and Win88 had a nice bump from 1.348 to 1.380 There was ~฿4000 wagered at BitDice and ~฿3000 at Pocket Rockets Casino CoinWin became the 3rd brand in 5 months to do a runner and cost us the full ฿1 investment. The bank was very small and there was no way to contact site admin so it was a dumb place to invest in anyway. It leaves us only ฿6.096 of the ฿8 invested. October 18, 2014 Another solid bump at Peerbet from ฿1.226 to ฿1.286 More than ฿1000 per week bet at Pocket Rockets Casino, no change in profit. Bitdice was showing 504 Gateway Time-out when I tried to check and Win88 is showing an investment balance of ฿0. What true captains of industry we have here. BTW I had a go at the new dice product on Betcoin and I really like it. Unfortunately (or fortunately ? haha) there is no investment and no auto bet bot but for normal betting, I like the simple layout and easy-to-use betting interface with big buttons and clear functionality. House edge is 1% and the biggest bet so far was ฿16. October 18, 2014 Ladies and Gentlemen all stats are updated except Bitdice because I can’t log in since the site upgrade and Win88 because their investment page is not outputting my balance. The news is the rise and rise of Peerbet has continued taking them to the top of the leaderboard for best return making them the 3rd site to make it there after Win88 and Pocket Rocket Casino. In a nice development 3 out of 4 sites that did not scam me and have the relevant figures available are performing in line with expected annual returns I have added another non-investment operator to the reviews, that being Fortune Jack who I reckon are pretty good for a roll. October 18, 2014 Not much change on the table but Win88 did tell me my balance and it puts them back at number 1 but they don’t get to go there since I still can’t see it on the site. Big changes coming up to the way Pocket Rocket Casino pays commission, the change has not started yet so I am not fully across it, perhaps Dean or someone cares to explain? Wherever we have the option we set our investment to 1X Kelly as that seems the closest thing to a “standard” nowadays. I went to Dicenow and there was a ball of tumbleweed blowing across it, seems to be kind of deserted. 6 months ago admin told me they were building version 2. IDK but other sites are changing and innovating but dicenow seems to be stuck in neutral and getting very little use. Peace out. October 18, 2014 PRC now pay them-self 0.25% of turnover commission from the bank no matter if investors profit or lose. If investors have a losing month to bettors they will then lose even more by paying PRC commission on turnover. Whereas most sites only take a commission from their investors when they win. Also, the 0.75% investors edge is 0.15% less than the standard 0.9% so you can expect to make less per bank turnover in PRC than other places but if PRCs bank turns over more often than other places that would make up for it. I asked to withdraw my investment from Win88 as there is no point having a bunch of? on the table. Chat support could not do it but they said the admin to do it “soon”. I finally got around to reviewing Primedice and by golly, it’s the best dice site I have ever seen! Beautiful design, fantastic auto-betting bot, near-instant transactions, and long history of trouble-free operation. Everything works perfectly and is intuitive. The only problem is they don’t have investment and the max bet of ฿20 is a bit small, but if you want to play rather than invest go directly to Primedice, do not pass go and do not pay 200 clams. October 18, 2014 Win88 no longer take house bank investment and did not have any way for me to check how my investment was performing, as such they are no longer a candidate for this table and I withdrew my investment which was performing handsomely, returning over 50% in 7 months. We are now using virtual banks to calculate bank turnover and expected annual returns where applicable (PRC and BitDice). This (and the lack of an action at Dicenow) brings the average expected annual return, not accounting for any scams or problems, to a very modest 7.09%. Less than you would make margin lending at Bitfinex, however, if you did not invest in Dicenow, it comes up to 21% and you could leverage up your kelly multiplier at PRC and BitDice to further increase your expected annual return. Rough fortnight on bit dice with our investment dropping from ฿1.058 to ฿1.046. House bank has fallen from ฿1239 to ฿1087 perhaps due to the lacklustre investment results of 8% per year and people moving some coins to device. Dicenow house bank has plummeted from ฿988 to ฿599, probably for the same reasons as above. This would be good for the remaining investors except that there is almost no betting happening there… October 18, 2014 Peerbet keeps roaring along with a big increase in profit and house bank. Bitdice is down, has not been down for long and funds are still in the public cold storage address so no reason to worry about exit scam yet but still a bad user experience. I might pull out of Dicenow as no one is betting there which gives me all the negatives of being in a house bank, like not being able to use those funds and counterparty risk but none of the advantages like return on investment. October 18, 2014 All site’s profits rose slightly except Peerbet which dropped for the first time in a long time. All site’s house bank rose except dicenow. Oh remember when Ice Dice ripped me and all the investors of in an exit scam? At the time I emailed admin asking for the BTC1.007 investment back and they finally got back to me;

David Lee <[email protected]> Hi, we cannot give you your money back unless you send us 1.007 BTC first. 1ADMcfy99ryZfpqLaDkoBU37t1fPhBES2n thank you, and nice try scamming me

October 18, 2014 Lots of action at Peerbet in the last few weeks. Bump in profit and big increase in turnover and house bank from BTC3188 to BTC3878. I saw there was a whale betting huge I guess he lost pretty big, as long as theymos is having fun with the forum funds I guess Actually who do we think the whale was? For the first time in months there was some action on dicenow, an increase in turnover and house bank, profit down a bit. For somewhere that reportedly gets a lot of action, Bitdice profit has been incredibly flat for incredibly long. Get your tin foil hats if you like. October 18, 2014 dicenow have gone to the top in the greatest comeback of all time. I have only just realised Peerbet take their 7% commission from investors at the time of withdrawal not in real time or weekly like other sites do. As such I have constantly overstated the Peerbet return by 7% but I have now corrected that. PRC dice has stopped investment so they have been changed to a static result. They gave an annualized return of 75% so we have to say well done and good luck in the future. 10 months after we started I would say it’s a pretty sorry-looking table. We have had 3 exit scams and 3 retirements (dicebitco.in is the one that is not shown). It seems the prime of Just Dice was the prime of dice investment in general, only a trustless system would get me excited again and get me to consider further investment. October 18, 2014 The big news in crypto dice since the last update is that the biggest and most trusted name in crypto gambling, Nitrogen, now has an excellent dice product. I think it looks great and what sets it apart is the overall quality of the operator with a long history of trouble-free honest service where you get an instant deposit and withdrawals and share your balance with the excellent sportsbook and poker games. It’s a shame there is no investment or auto-betting bot and I don’t like how you have to scroll up and down between the betting interface and your own bet results but overall I think it’s the best crypto dice option, although if you are a real dice only purist not in the US or Australia Primedice might still be best. This is a milestone update for the crypto dice investment comparison. It has been 1 year since we invested! It has been a terrible year for the crypto dice investment scene; with many scams, the best dice sites to play on not having house bank investment, the return of JustDice happening with an altcoin instead of bitcoin and no progress or innovation in producing the much needed trustless model for house bank investment. The downward trend continues with 2 of our 3 remaining operators’ house banks shrinking (BitDice stayed the same). The headline result is that in 1 year of diversified investment in crypto dice house banks, we lost 32.46%. A more careful investor would have had a better result but not enough to make it worth the risk, and an investor who is truly careful would not invest in any crypto dice house banks anyway. Crypto dice house bank investment is dead for now and only a trustless implementation can bring it back to life.